The Council of Eagles

[Antheia]

By older member of the species I mean older than you, which would be all of them.

They do have soul, will, and ability to make decisions, but all of these are of a different make-up than human. We do have this in the Talking Beast SI:

Talking beasts vary in temperament, but nearly all are comparatively simple creatures. They primarily concern themselves with the activities of living - gathering food, building homes, protecting themselves, and making merry together. Few of them can be accused of being great thinkers, but most are steadfast, loyal and good sorts of folk who as a group remain faithful to Aslan even when Dwarfs and Humans no longer acknowledge him. Their gift of speech was given with a caveat - if they behave wickedly, they may lose the ability to speak and become what is known as a lapsed beast. Lapsed beasts are rumored to be particularly dangerous, perhaps because the process of lapsing leaves them angry and confused.

However it could probably use some more details to make it more clear how this works with Beasts that are considered "wise", implying some better form of thought.

[Tyren]

What Anth said - there is definitely a choice and definitely room to make decisions and bad ones. If I'm recalling correctly, we've had a few Ravens that acted as spies for the Moors, Ulfden's had quite a reputation to get over, there was even a Vulture that sided with Ubel before my time, if I remember right. The point isn't that Talking Beasts never make mistakes and never falter - Bree the Horse in HHB seems to be under the impression that Aslan is more of a metaphor than anything else, for instance (which he finds out is rather not the case!) The point is that things are a lot more clear-cut and black-and-white for Talking Beasts, and to do something so blatantly evil as siding with the Witch would, in most cases, would involve going against their nature. That's not to say it never happens - the choice to do so is simply more definitive, and the ones we see actually going forward with that choice tend to have an ambiguous connotation to begin with. (See Lucy's comment about Robins always being good creatures in the stories, when questioning whether following one is a good idea.)

Speaking from an RP perspective, that's one of the things that struck Tyren during his two journeys to Narnia - how clear-cut and simple things tended to be in Narnia. Being an Archenlander and a Human, he comes from a very different mindset. There's more of a tendency to shades of grey with humans than there are with the Talking Beasts, and as a nobleman he tends to get embroiled in politics a lot. Narnia gave him simplicity in stark contrast to all of that - little ambition to be something they weren't, content in who they were and what they were. Things were clearly defined, and the Beasts were content with that - and frankly, so was Tyren, who found it rather refreshing compared to what he was used to.

It's not that Talking Beasts don't have a choice, they do. It's that most of them, especially of species that tend to be perceived as 'good,' don't really have much reason to make the choice to turn away from Aslan in favor of evil. They despair, they doubt, they question, they falter - I don't think it impossible that Talking Beasts sold each other out during the Winter, for instance, though I expect it would be more accidentally or out of fear than anything else. But to deliberately side with an enemy so obvious against Aslan - that's an option I think most Beasts would shy away from, especially ones with a reputation for wisdom (as Anth said, the followup to that option would inevitably be 'at what cost?')

Ultimately what it boils down to is that this black-and-white, clear cut definition of good and evil is built right in to the setting. The outright Evils are evil by choice and corrupted so far they cannot be redeemed without Aslan's intervention, and the outright virtuous creatures are so inherently good that they cannot be corrupted. The rest of the creatures can fall either way, but there is no toeing of the line with the Talking Beasts - either they fall one way or the other.

[Miskord]

By older member of the species I mean older than you, which would be all of them.

If I got a consensus from Skarlieth, Farflight and Starsoar that the pose I had made, referencing unnamed NPCs who were a minority of Eagles during the Endless Winter that had voiced the suggestion the Council consider surrendering to the White Witch, would that satisfy your request and resolve this?

[Farflight]

Ok, I really dislike disharmony and so tend to either stay out of arguments, try to passify them, or authoritatively shut them down.
When I do, I typically try to operate in a page position, so the argument isn't public. But you wanted Eagle input so here it is.
Here I cant do any of the three, but I can bluster with some authority as I'm an eagle.
My opinion is thus. I would think any suggestion like that would be shut down hard by the council. and if made would either be made by a eagle who is very young, or had just been physically or emotionally wounded in some large way, and without direct knowledge of Aslan.
Am I comfortable with some unnamed egle in the past possibly having made that suggestion? No. My reasons are thus, entirely bypassing all the (with all due respect) pointless debate about the finer points of doctrine of a religion where those points have been argued into the ground by both sides for years.
Reason one. A player has little right to make up a background of any character other than his own. There are times this is limited is the example of "my moms dead, or in Miskords case, "my wife and son dies in battle" Thats cool because its a limited history, directly applying to the players character, and the other two characters it impacts cannot ever be played (the wife and son) as they are dead.
Want to put the suggestion out there to show that as a species Eagles can make oopsies? Be my guest, but do it with your own character. Miskord could have made the suggestion, so long as there was a background there to support it.
Reason 2. Having it be some shady unknown character is pointless, and really, even having Miskord have done it is rather of little impact, for the simple reason its a deeply shaming occurrence and the only remaining active person to remember it would do his best to keep it quiet. As was posted in a MOTD. Characters who have deep secrets have secrets not things that they share freely, or for that matter do they go around dropping dark hints about what secrets they may or may not know.
If you wanted Miskord to have made such a suggestion, to my mind the easiest way to handle it would be, decide so, decide the ic background to have driven such and how much it haunts him, leaving it at that. To take it one step farther a reasonable way to bring it into RP would be to have Pomar and Clanga, (who would also remember) be wary about accepting you back into a position of leadership in the council, which is a great way to explain ICly why your not in, when asked a simple answer could be, 'Differences of opinion, long ago.'
Not trying to be smarmy, but its a great vague way to put things.
That way the depth you want is there, the only character directly impacted is you, and the rest of the eagles, if ever we find out, can have a blast as we icly, "struggle to understand" . but be otherwise unaffected.

First issue, ok, second, history of the council.
Right now the history is thus, I know this from the players history in the MUCK and active rp and irl discussions with a player no longer on the muck, but who used to lead the council, in fact, who started it when guilds were first programmed in.
The council was a largely underground force during the winter, spying and helping where they could, but (wisely ) being super careful, to the possibility that they did allow some beings to get turned to stone or killed because trying to help them could of gotten the whole council stoned, or killed. Any history before the winter is lost, Jadis' purges destroyed the old council chamber with all the histories early on in the winter. Afterward, it mainly served as a surrogate family for all who would come, as most everyone had lost someone to the war. It served to train young eagles and to impart the gathered wisdom, as well as histories of the fight, on to the next generations.
Currently there is talk about many things changing in the council, staff talking about having the eagles be a part of the military, or other things, all of witch is great, but makes it difficult to decide roles specifically because things will likely change once they do. So my advice would be at this point, rp more with personal growth and rp instead of council based, as that will fall into place soon when Staff finishes their redesign of the council for us.

As a last note, be careful to say that no eagle has made input to this discussion. Remember there are alts, and I could just as easily be Tyren, or Petraverd, or even Antheia and just not wishing to go through the trouble of logging out, into this character and posting, also, as this is ooc I try to limit my posts simply to also limit mistakes on my part that might give away alts. Just because the name is of a unicorn, does not necessarily mean an eagle is not typing. Nor, by the same token, that one is.

I do not mean to come accross in a jerky manner, but much of my background training is in debate, and thusly when I type it makes me seem like a real jerk because I tend to state my opinions forcefully. I hope they are taken in the spirit given, with no slight nor disrespect offered

[Miskord]

Just so folk are clear, here is the exact pose I made trying to flesh out council backstory to help develop my character:
~ ~ ~

Miskord bobs his head. "I still remember Peter taking command on the battlefield. I honestly ..." he peers about, ensuring no one else is in earshot. "I honestly had started to lose faith," he confesses. "I had started the prophecies would come true, at least in my lifetime, before first Aslan and then the two sons of Adam and daughters of Eve returned. The Eagle Council was falling apart ... some had even started to voice support for the Ice Queen, though -- fortunately -- reason prevailed and those voices were dismissed. I realized, as he unfurled a battle plan, explained his strategy for the eagles ... that doubt vanished. I knew, at that point, the day would be one. I knew it would be bloody, but I knew victory was finally at wing," he says. "I regret I was too injured in the battle to see his coronation, and his brother's and sisters's, by Aslan himself at Cair Paravel, and Denga and Denkord, and so many others did not live to see it."

~ ~ ~

[Miskord]

Skarlieth, Farflight and I have worked out an alternative that Skarlieth and Farflight agree will work.

I will retcon the pose and replace it thus:
~ ~ ~
Miskord bobs his head. "I still remember Peter taking command on the battlefield. I honestly ..." he peers about, ensuring no one else is in earshot. "I honestly had started to lose spirit," he confesses. "The Winter was hard, even for our kind. We had to make ... painful choices, sometimes. The Eagle Council could do little but retreat, hide away. Individuals were torn by mandates to stear clear and a desire to intervene. I realized, at Aslan's Camp, when King Peter unfurled a battle plan and explained his strategy for the eagles ... he restored all our spirits. I knew, at that point, the day would be won ... we would engage her, and with Peter's sword and so many allies fighting as one, the day would be won. I knew it would be bloody, none of us had any pretentions that we would not suffer losses, but we all knew victory was finally at wing," he says. "I regret I was too injured in the battle to see His coronation, and His Brother's and Sisters', by Aslan himself at Cair Paravel, and Denga and Denkord, and so many others did not live to see it."
~ ~ ~
Essentially, this does away with any eagle choosing ill. Instead, tough choices ... in coordination with Skarlieth, his background was he was a young eagle making a foolish choice, wanting to engage the White Witch directly while the Council's standing mandates were to stay back, fall back because they knew attacks against her would be futile and cost them precious blood. One particular day, Skarlieth felt he had a shot and went for it, with Miskord nearby and witnessing though Skarlieth was unaware. Miskord badly wished to intervene, pull Skarlieth from danger, but the Council mandates prohibited from doing so ... Skarlieth was stuck and frozen by the Witch's spear with Miskord emotionally torn by being able to do nothing but watch.

Miskord has only recently rejoined Narnia. He feels guilty and shame toward his inaction to save Skarlieth from the Witch's spear. Meanwhile ... well ... other elements from other characters have been suggested that could make this interesting from an RP drama perspective.

If this passes muster by Antheia, I would like to submit it as an amended pose and gist to work off of. Hopefully RP can move forward, but I would still appreciate official fleshing out of Eagle and Council details, explanation of Neutral alignment especially, so these problems can be avoided in the future for myself or other aspiring eagle players.

[Antheia]

Yes, this sounds like a lovely background.